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... in the Android space, reminds me of a conversation I had with a Samsung engineer in the summer of 2009.
Warning: this is a short story with a long context :)
Android already existed, and I did have an HTC G1. I had that imported pretty much immediately at release (it would not surprise me if it was the first G1 in my country), but hardly touched it - it just didn't quite do it for me. Just before this conversation took place, the HTC Touch Pro2 (Windows Mobile), HTC Hero (Android) and Samsung Omnia II (Windows Mobile) had been released. As I had some dealings with Samsung, I had most flagship Samsung devices available to me as well.
I had been somewhat divided about the original Omnia. While on the whole it felt even more sluggish than most of HTC's offerings, in some things it was faster. So I was quite curious about what the Omnia II would bring. I was pleasantly surprised by the screen, and immediately claimed I would never again get a non-AMOLED device (a few months later I got an HTC HD2 with an LCD). The CPU speed was also beyond anything HTC to offer, but sadly the GPU speed was terrible, and the device needed more RAM.
On the whole the device was reasonably fast, but even back then TouchWiz was bloated, slow and memory-hungry enough to slow it down to a crawl. Removing it and running stock Windows Mobile made a lot of difference.
Nevertheless, if you were coming from the Omnia I, the Omnia II was a major improvement, and quite a big jump for a single model iteration. So, I'm talking to this Samsung engineer, and I'm telling him my thoughts on all these things, the good parts and the bad parts. I'm wondering out loud of they think they can ever compete with HTC - the big player in both Windows Mobile as well as Android at that time.
I will never forget his reaction. He gives me a look that spells out I have asked something utterly ridiculous. He smiles, and tells me HTC is a small fish - and this I remember literally: the big boys will come out to play now. I must not understand how big a company Samsung really is (and indeed, back then I did not really grasp it), and now that they had (internally) committed to smartphones, within 5 years, the market would be theirs. The Omnia's were just Samsung warming up.
Initially, I was skeptical. Especially when HTC came out with the HD2 only months later, eclipsing the Omnia II, and Samsung not having an answer to it. But when the original Galaxy S was released quite a bit later, that opinion started to change - I started to believe in it.
And look where we are now. It's not 5 years later, it's 3.5 years later. Apple is scared of Samsung. Google is scared of Samsung. To be perfectly honest, I'm getting scared of Samsung !
Maybe it was just coincidence I ran into an overly-confident Samsung engineer that just happened to be right. Or maybe he just really knew what he was talking about. Nevertheless, when I think back to that conversation, I can't help but smile.
Great story... :)
A great anecdote :-)
Samsung are the world's biggest electronics manufacturer for a reason - they can produce massive quantities at high quality to cost and a schedule. With some dedicated talent driving their industrial design to leverage that capacity then their success is no surprise at all.
Samsung have the capacity and therefore the luxury to flood the market and see what sticks. If it sticks, then hone it, tweak it and let market forces dictate how the product develops rather than trying to dictate to the market.
Plus, as Qualcomm have sorted out the universal LTE chip, there really is nothing at all stopping them making and selling 100,000,000 SGS IV's the world over.
Guess if you really believe in something big things will happen. Stay true in what you believe.
I think you got that backwards. Verizon should play ball with Google if they really care about sales and dominance.
P. S. I'm a straight talk user with a gsm Samsung Galaxy Nexus I don't need a overpriced cell plan and Verizon bloat ware.
Wow I always saw the galaxy s as a turning point. My first samsung and my first Android. And I loved it. I've moved on to the nexus line now but where do you think things will go next? I also think HTC is a small fish I don't think they fully understand what people want, sense has been bad for as long as I can remember even when people where raving about the HTC desire. Touch wiz has always been better (never perfect just better) . Personally I feel samsung will be top dog for a while in smart phones at least but Motorola being the only company with the guidance from Google to make a difference. Everyone seems two steps behind Samsung but I think this year could be big. On the tablet front I don't seem samsung really making much ground with the likes of amazon and ipad and nexus 7 this year at least. Very interesting times in the mobile world right now.
Remembers me of the time when Nokia was #1 and Samsung started to use S60 on some of their devices. Noone imagined that these days and meanwhile:
From zero to "hero" here in germany...
+Chainfire hi I know your a Samsung guru and mobile Odin I've said before is one of the best app for a rooted samsung if not the best. But would you be developing for other manufactures as well or more to my need nexus phones?
+Cory Miller and how is Google getting in bed with Verizon going to help it globally? The only way for it to compete with Samsung is globally...
Great story, but no matter how big Samsung is, having the S3 opened my eyes at how great hardware can be hindered on with mistakes and flaws. SDS was a mistake..manufacturing defects are flaws. Just yesterday I had my screen flicker and died for a solid 10 minutes..hard reboot fixed nothing and it randomly comes back to normal..I think yes Samsung is one of the big boys. No they don't have my vote yet. But awesome story and that made me smile. Now I'm going to carry this smile for the whole day.
well, having samsung dominate the android world isn't really bad for consumers AS LONG AS:
1- they get their shit together and start making touchwiz less sucky.
2- Start working with devs so they have access to anything they need to make custom roms.
I don't think Sony have big enough balls to take big risks +Jeremy Loper as much as I like the products I would have loved to see some Android integration with the ps4 and even the PSP and more Google tv's
Verizon is the devil plain and clear. Just ask galaxy nexus users on their network. What are they like 4 updates behind now? Sorry but I don't need big brother overcharging me for the "privilege" of telling me what I do and don't need. In my opinion they need to be taken down a peg or two. Also I don't consider my galaxy nexus to be a mid range phone and att hspa+ speeds and coverage suit me just fine. Oh yeah 45 a month unlimited everything is kind of nice too.
+Cory Miller Google should NEVER play ball with Verizon... unless Verizon reevaluates their Draconian policies concerning 3rd party/partner apps on devices that play on their network. Google dropped the Nexus line from Verizon for this reason.
I have a Galaxy Nexus on Verizon that is now 4 updates behind because of Verizon's policies. I ordered a Nexus 4 and will be testing my tolerance for a limited data plan on month-to-month T-mobile and finding wifi hot spots as there is still no UI experience on Android that is as clean, uncluttered and un-iPhone than Nexus and Pure Google.
Everything Samsung has done to Android to date (aside from the Nexus 10, upon which I am writing this) has been an attempt to mimic iOS. Right down to color scheme and the Settings app and menus. I had the displeasure of trying to help an older gal get her Samsung Tab connected to 4G while at the airport and had to rub my eyes to reassure myself that I wasn't really on an iPad. Shameful.
Google will have no problem getting their money's worth out of Android with or without Verizon. But if consumers have any taste, they would leave Verizon and insist on a carrier who allows Pure Google and unlocked devices, forcing Verizon to play ball with Google.
+Aaron Michael It's no different with HTC or any OEM, but Samsung does make mistakes. In general, they seem to be bettering though. Either way, don't forget that half of Samsung's dominance is their marketing budget - something none of the other OEMs outside of Apple - have.
Though I do long for the day when they improve their Software ... Not wanting to get rid of TouchWiz per se, but stuff like using Google services instead of Samsung's, which annoys me. Or fixing TouchWiz so it doesn't have to reload everything everytime I go to the home screen :')
Having the best coverage doesn't necessarily mean that they are the best wireless provider. Verizon will soon have to change allot of their practices or they will soon find themselves falling off rather quickly. Thanks to Google, phones are becoming more and more affordable and thanks to mvno's so are smartphone plans.
Thanks for these insight. I'm less optimistic about the future, though. I own two Samsung Android device (Galaxy Tab 10.1 and SG S2) and the quality of the hardware is disappointing, especially given that these were their flagship products. My prediction is that Samsung will first still get bigger on the Android market, but then suffer a setback due to their hardware and by this quite significantly damage the overall Android brand.
+Cory Miller You are wrong on one thing. The DROID campaign most certainly did not put android on the map. A little company by the name of T mobile did that seeing as how they were carrying android phones long before Verizon even knew what a droid was.
What sparked this conversation? We're talking about behemoths here. Android is designed to be forked and the ecosystem that's supposed to lock in OEMs are the Google services.
Sadly (from my PoV) Google are making mistakes by trying to tie in the end user with the services e.g. Google+ reviews. The attempt to lock in users isn't about fear nor competition and thus it's not about Samsung it's just about maximising brand.
It's the same as the fact they spam browser users in order to advertise Chrome. Google are still relatively new to the mobile user space and so don't understand just how insignificant they are. The more they attempt to strong arm the user, the most disillusioned the user becomes. Android for the average user isn't about Google, it's about the phone and the app. It's like the amount of users that would happily give Youtube their credit card details but not want to give the same details directly to Google.
I disagree. DROID and Verizon put Android on the map. It doesn't matter who did anything "first". Ask Apple. They know ALL about it.
Yeah Verizon would have never even considered android if not for its popularity on T mobile.
+Andrew Palm Okay, I won't profess to understand it OUTSIDE the USA. Here? DROID is STILL inaccurately has metonymy with Android.
Samsung is on top now because of innovation but I feel if they're build quality does not improve real soon, it will come back to haunt them. Everyone that owns a Note II or GSIII loves it. But every owner also says, "feels like I'm gonna break it just holding it," or, "I'm always worried about dropping it." And there are soooo many Galaxy devices with functioning shattered screens, thanks Corny Gorilla glass. And don't tell me to get an Otter box or something. I shouldn't have to buy a helmet for my device, it should be designed with a skull. Stop making stuff thin and start making it well. The only device I've ever owned that stood up to 2 years of use with no issues was my LG Optimus. Completely lacking in everyway (until root and ROM) but tough as nails.
I've only seen one S3 with glass issues - and that was a little tiny corner.
I've seen ASSLOADS of iPhones that look like a truck ran over them. My wife? High school teacher .. says MOST iPhones she takes from her students (no electronics aloud) have broken glass.
Indeed +Andrew Palm, a typical arrogant american dumbass...
+Tyler S How has Samsung been innovative... in the LEAST? Made phablets? A stylus? Bump-to-share?
Bump App + built in Android NFC...
Nothing even remotely close to innovative. Aside from kitschy commercials.
+Cory Miller it's not about whether YOU care about Europe, it's about understanding that America (as great as it is) isn't the only market in the world and for Google to ignore that fact would be a failure...
And as above, the reason Google walked away from Verizon is the epic failure that is the Verizon Gnex...A Nexus phone without updates isn't a Nexus phone!
+Chad Kemp regardless of the why, they're on top. my point is, they need to focus on quality, not just the next generation of fastest and thinnest. Thanks for missing the point bro...stop being a contrary-est and you might see a point of view other than your own.
+Tyler S I don't think I am missing your point. I completely agree with the build quality issues. I merely commented on your opening statement, which was an assertion that Samsung is on top because of innovation. I would like to hear your arguments (and examples of) their innovation. Same goes for +John Iat ... "dude".
I am not trying to be a contrarian... I am pointing out that Samsung is a follow-the-leader manufacturer. True, they have manufacturing pipeline and supply chain to bring lots of different offerings to market, and quickly, under the facade of innovation, but at the MONUMENTAL expense of quality. Apple certainly knows this, which is why every one of their products is of the highest quality. The only reason I use a MacBook. Because it is built to last. iOS just happens to be a terrible, serialized (and closed) ecosystem, and Google is capitalizing on that fact.
+John Iat That is a pretty broad statement. I am all ears, if you would like to expand on the details supporting it. My point-of-view is up for grabs. But until you have substantive evidence showing that somehow Apple rode the coattails of Samsung into this market, I am afraid I will have to respectfully disagree.
Well HTC with its Sense UI just doesn't make any sense.
Screw this I'm getting a me a jitter bug :-p
+Chad Kemp definition of innovation: a new idea, method, or product. Although I feel its not that cut and dry in this case. In my opinion, a tech company can not be on top without being innovative. Old tech does not pave the way ahead. So, therefore if they are on top, it's because of innovation. Whether they steal it, create it, or destroy it, it was innovative. Things that stand out to me: Their release models that unleashed a myriad of devices (symbian, android, and windows) at all price points and hareware levels, and like you said, when one takes off they can focus in on it. and that is possible becuase a quarter of samsung's revenue is from semiconductors and memeory so samsung electronics can afford to take some wrong turns cause samsung daddy can rescue em. At the same time, being vertically interegrated allows them to design and get to market a lot cheaper and faster than say apple...who until recently bought most of they memory and storage from samsung. so when they may not have been innovative in the sense creating the next apple IIe or ipod or television or telephone...they couldnt possible have gotten where they are without being innovative...really, i was just looking for a one word description of theyre success...ill choose more carefully next time as to not detract from my point.
+Tyler S All good points. And your comments bring to bear that which all "flame wars" are born of, and that is subjectivity. I am just as guilty as anyone else in this convo. I am of the mind that innovation is not simply expanding on someone else's good idea (even Apple has stood on the shoulders of others in this regard... Eg., Xerox)... especially when it is, for the manufacturer, Quantity at the expense of Quality.
I would rather see Samsung use their might to make a quality, reliable and covetable handset based on OPEN standards (a la Nexus) instead of 75% products with an incredibly short plan-to-obsolescence. Kudos to their vertical integration. There are MANY other markets that benefit from it. Television sets, individual components, etc. But handsets are what consumers get the most use out of (and indeed rely upon) these days, and Samsung (among many other manufacturers, mind you) builds poorly crafted knock-offs at our expense. Factoring in the ridiculously short lifecycle of their devices (pushing the next on you in 6 months) and secondary market value, the total cost of ownership is FAR below that of an iDevice or Pure NEXUS device.
+John Iat I am disappointed that you gave up. I said my POV was up for grabs, and I was only looking for some concrete reasons. Forgive my straight-forwardness (I know no other way). I was hoping you could peel back the covers on some history of the Smart handset that I may be overlooking.
This is truth ΔΔ
Not that one the one above.. Lol.
+Chad Kemp Totally agree. But is the super accelerated life cycle of devices really the fault of the manufacturer or just inherent in the technology? Android keeps pumping out new versions and features that need different and/or better hardware to fully utilize. And while Nexus devices usually have a longer official support and update life, with the exceptions of the latest LG Nexus 4 and the first HTC, they were all Samsung (don't quote me on that, could be slight exaggeration) and thus Nexus devices had Samsung's cheap, light, plastic-y feel. Im not too worried about what comes on the device software wise...all that is going to get wiped and replaced anyways. I want a good solid handset that will hold up to everyday life, but that wont help sales numbers. And if they are going to make flimsy products, at least drop the price and make them truly disposable.
+James Battle III I will only give this comment a brief sentence or two. Having a Nexus device updated as soon as Google releases it is EXACTLY the point of a Nexus device. So being behind on updates is because the Carrier has not held up their half of the bargain with Google when the device was released on their network.
+James Battle III totally...Nexus is for customizing and those who update...not those who wait to be updated.
+Tyler S No, it is not the fault of the manufacturer (necessarily). It is the fault of the gluttonous consumerism of the target market. Samsung (and HTC, and Motorola...) could realize similar margins on better built products with longer lifecycles if the quality of the product justified the current price AND they had truly innovative content (not targeted hate-ads on their main competitors). The iDevices are top quality, and are in the same price-point off the shelf (no contract). Samsung's supply chain is easily as robust as Apple's. But there is a wanton disregard for the true covetable nature that a handset could have because they want you to break it and get a new one.
+James Battle III +Tyler S +1'd your comments because they both address the geek market's needs (and that is what we all are, aren't we?) but my point stands... the reason Google releases the Nexus devices (with an unlocked bootloader, save for Big Red) is because you, as the consumer, are supposed to be able to rely on the same level of OS Upgradeability and addressing of concerns (storied bluetooth woes of pre JellyBean Android) that the iDevices get from Apple. Apple updates iOS, and no matter WHO you have your phone through, you get the update. Solid, stable, and addressing whatever issues there are. Google aims for the same experience with Nexus. I shouldn't have to do it myself, though Verizon forced my hand.
For those who aren't savvy enough to root and unlock their phone, they should be able to rely on the Nexus experience to do it for them.
+Chad Kemp Totally...Apple, Samsung, and LG all have the resources to manufacture some killer products but for some reason the actual product takes the back seat. Like the SGSIII ad campaign that boasted Google+. That's ridiculous considering just about any phone has Google+. Stop trying to sell me google software behind the guise of a device and sell me a device based on the merits of the device.
I remember those days. I had HTC Mogul, Diamond, TP, TP2 and always wanted an Omnia. Had many other Androids since but now I have GN2 and love it
This is a good conversation and I agree with alot that's been said +Chad Kemp the only point I will disagree with is the build quaity from apple. I can't talk on MacBooks because I have never owned one myself but ipods are terrible for breaking and I'm really careful with my things I really value the expensive things I have so take great care of them. I have had about 10 ipods and every change is because the last one had broken in some way. And everything I hear from my friends and there Iphones is that they breaking in some way or another. Maybe my friends are clumsy but I've had 3 samsung phones and only one broke and samsung promptly fixed it. I don't know wether I'm just lucky or what. But I don't think the build quality of apple is all its cracked up to be. I've heard horror stories of lg's build but now I'm on the nexus so far so good.
does anyone think there's an OEM out there that will make a surprise difference this year?
So when everyone had iPhones, they were isheep. What do we call people who buy Samsung products?
I have an S3. I like it a lot, and I liked my Note 2 before that. I do recognise that neither are truly premium products though. I'd like an Android device with a premium build. HTC may be small - but they are the only ones aside from Apple that understand premium design.
+Samuel Adjepong Yes, Sony I think they are starting to produce quality Phones and Tabs.
Not if my Xperia T was anything to go by!
First unit: micro sim randomly ejecting
Second unit: sim/sd flap loose....
My Xperia Play is still going strong.
That Xperia Z looks hot!
+Rich Fletcher +Peter Edwards +Samuel Adjepong sssheep? ;) Don't get me wrong here, I like the S3 (I like the Note2 more), but if you consider the leap going from the S to the S2, the S3 is somewhat disappointing. But design is a matter of taste, and build quality is not measured in weight or aluminium. The plastic of Samsung may feel light and breakable - it really isn't. That being said, I'm not a big fan of the glossy they have these days, and much prefer the S2 form and feel over the S3's. Luckily there are rumors that the S4 will be more like the S2 again.
HTC's have nice build quality and looks, but lately they've been skipping releases in Europe (stupid: largest market of people with too much money, and the market is consumer controlled, not carrier controlled - then again, Google is also giving large parts of Europe the finger with the N4 and N10), and I just can't get over the blatant lying they have done in the past. Not to mention Beats which is downright silly.
Sony is up and coming. I've had my share of SE devices in the past. They would invariably die within 3 months. That is many years ago, and only now am I slowly reconsidering Sony. I have an Experia T and it is a big step in the right direction, seeing where Sony is coming from. I will be getting the Z, and I hope that one lives up to the expectations. Spec-wise it may not beat the One or the S4 though, but the question is if that is even important right now. They're closing in, and that's good.
When I bought my Xperia T I had such high hopes. On paper, the things that mattered were all there: Surely the camera would be great? Surely the Walkman brand would ensure great sound quality through headphones? MicroSD, great screen, nice form factor (except where the buttons are on the right hand side - who's bright idea was that??).
The actual experience was very sub-par in my view. Fast one minute, crawling the next. Quality issues that knocked my confidence in the device. Camera that was great on scenes, but not a lot of good for quick shots of moving objects (my kids). Sound quality was good, but available volume was poor.
Loved the size, the screen, and the materials used.
I'm surprised at all the build quality/longevity comments, we the consumers, whether in the us market or globally determine both with our wallets. Samsung,Apple, Google all have marketing depots and realize that most people are(let's say frugal instead of cheap) and maybe some of you are but I and a lot of other people won't spend a grand on a device that just plain takes a beating everyday. Let's face it, you don't chuck a Tiffany vase into your purse or a Monet in your back pocket, or spend thousands on a disposable product
Great story :D
Everyone treated Samsung and its plastic phones like shit... Now look Samsung is everywhere... Well ahead of the game ...
Macdonalds are everywhere. What's your point?
And I see kfc is everywhere .. Do they even get chance with MacDonald's... In Canada they bare now competing with Tim Horton's.. So if u think a bit you will get the point
My point (which you missed by a country mile) is that being everywhere is not a guarantee of quality by any means.
The S series took over which market? The Android market?
Yep - I'm an Apple user who has (and quite likes) his S3.
I believe the Galaxy S DID inject some style into the Android line-up. Remind me - what was that phone "based on"?
I like my S3 (as I said) - but I'd like something much more premium if it was out there. I'm holding out hope for the X Phone. I'm thinking the S4 will be a very minor upgrade, and the predictability of HTC re-releasing the One in September with better specs is annoying.
I am lucky enough to be able to use whatever phone I choose. It's slightly depressing that the phone I settle on has been out for 8 months now.
It's shoking to me that Samsung couldn't handle 2GB ram in their quad core version, I stick with S2 until they have more ram or Nexus4 have better hardware for google to improve, S2 is a kicker when I need it, I over clock to 1500MHz (stable) so it would reach S3 comparing to price and more convenient size that fits my pocket.
The main reason why Samsung sells so much +Chainfire is because HTC fails so hard since the original desire.
Three reasons why HTC fails:
No sd card slot
Non removable battery
Really bad camera
Otherwise HTC is superior to Samsung. Just look at the HTC one x vs the s3. Samsung is just cheap plastic. And way too big for normal sized hands.
+Ausama S. My s3 has quad core and 2gb ram. Lte international.
SD cards are slowly starting to die. Your seeing more and more cloud devices than anything else now. On top of cloud storage they are forcing data limits on most providers... Verizon, cox , internet and phone providers the same. It's bull
+Rich Fletcher , the S3 2GB ram has dual core instead when I check specs, which one is that called? Link to it please :-)
Though, I must order it instead +shipment, we dont have at&t or veriz..etc.. versions in Iraq :-\
Its a small market in here.
Check the lte s3 available in the UK on EE.
USA variant only had dual core and 2gb ram. Mine is quad core.
+Kent Sullivan , Note is almost the same as kindle fire category to me, I have note 1 but stick to S2, got S2 Syiah dual roms cm9 & AOKP, it's ram is full after using ~400 app, removing their triggers is quiet painful, lol
+samuel black , for Nexus; cloud is not a good replacement for 64GB when I use torrent downloads in my phone, I'm using my S2 instead of my gaming laptop.:-)
Thanks +Rich Fletcher :-)
Quad core but runs like 800mhz.
Apples 4s is outselling the s3! You know why? Because apple builds the hardware for the software and the software for the hardware. That's why the iPhone is superior to all other devices out there.
I think you have a point, but you've chosen the wrong place for a sensible discussion.
Although, I assume that was your intention.
I have a hunch Motorola will be giving Sammy a run for their money very soon
What a great story. Samsung has come a long way and HTC is going down hill. Thanks for sharing. I'm waiting for Google to beat up the Comcast monopoly.
I've had all providers. I am still very, very happy with T-Mobile, and my price is fantastic. A few hacks here, a few hacks there, and I keep my high speed for truly unlimited usage, and I can talk and surf at the same time ( I thought at&t was the only one ;) ). I came across Samsung by accident, with a phone I was asked to hack. I've been one to try new phones, and make terrible mistakes, at an expensive price.
Go back to 2005-2006, and start with the Shadow. Worst phone ever. I learned how to hack a bit later when i got the cliq. Hacking that phone was a nightmare, but I learned the negative effects of a locked down device and bloatware to boot.no more Motorola devices for me!
When I first pulled up xda for the galaxy, I knew I had stumbled upon something Epic (lol), and I was excited about being able to get my next phone, which after another android device or two, ended up being the phone I'm still using today, the Galaxy s ii.
So much fun to Guinea pig new software and ROMs, without having to seriously worry about bricking a device. Then you see articles like this one that are just awesome. I love what Samsung Does, and the true Giant it will be.
+John Luikart I think not. They don't have the manufacturing might that Sammy do. Especially not internationally.
But samsung are the good guys aren't they? It's apple that take people to court when they blatantly copy their designs?
+Rich Fletcher time will tell about moto. They are still on their old product pipeline. I think once they have products that people buy globally (other than just at verizon) they can manufacture them as needed. Also, samsung isn't necessarily bad. But it's good for consumers if we have more players. we don't want a 2 horse war (samsung and apple)
Being one of the first UK customers to seek out the Samsung built nexus s- remember that relic? bet u dont- I was amazed by the apparent flimsy build quality. Took it home and compared to the wife's then fairly recent 3gs iPhone and guess what- the nexus looked like a toy! However in the 2 and half years I have been hammering this phone( yes it still lives and serves me well) I have never managed to break it. I am a site electrician and the nexus has been dropped from scaffold,stood on,in pocket with tools etc and while its clearly picked up a few dinks, I am happily jamming custom ROMs and using it every day. Wife's 3gs despite weighty sense of quality in the hand, just couldn't wait to smash itself to pieces at any opportunity! Sometimes plasticity equals superior toughness. S3 and the likes are just too big I reckon for the armature to stand real abuse